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Post by Magolion on Apr 30, 2004 13:02:11 GMT -5
Amen to that!!
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Post by Ice on Apr 30, 2004 15:33:09 GMT -5
First of all, a woman president would be a good thing for this country. We don't need one, but we don't need to not have one either.
Abortion. I don't plan on having one myself, but I think its up to the woman. I shouldn't choose whether or not someone else can play tennis or an instrument, so why should I decide if people should have abortions?
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Post by Eruonen on Apr 30, 2004 16:09:42 GMT -5
Because it is murder and is against God to put it simply.
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Post by Ice on Apr 30, 2004 16:18:10 GMT -5
I can accept Em's position, because she is a woman, and this issue concerns her. But men have no right in forbidding women from getting abortions. Besides, which is better: Legal abortions, or illegal ones? Illegal ones are dangerous, but they will happen if abortions are ever made illegal. You can't stop them. I'm not for abortions. I dont like them. But I feel that women should be able to make that choice.
And what about incidents of incest? Rape? Incidents in which going through with the pregnancy will kill the mother? Do you really want to make those women keep the babies?
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Post by Eruonen on Apr 30, 2004 16:24:46 GMT -5
Toward your first comment, the child is not just the woman's but also the man's for it takes two to create one.
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Post by Ice on Apr 30, 2004 16:30:09 GMT -5
Hmm, but what about rape and incest, for a start? What about all the men that abandon the women they sleep with? Yes, women do that too, but not nearly as much as men. I'd say probably 95%, if not more, of these things (well, I dont know about incest, that probably isn't 95%) are done by men. I dont think abortions should be done just because its an inconvienence. But once again, you must see what will happen if it is outlawed. Women will give themselves abortions, and you're going to have people who are seriously injured or possibly killed because of it.
And also, you said earlier that "Because it is murder and is against God to put it simply." This is the reason I'm all mad about the Gay Marriage thing too. People. This country is not Christian. What happened to seperation of church and state? Just because somethings against the Christian religion doesn't mean its automatically wrong. What about other religions??
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Post by Eruonen on Apr 30, 2004 18:15:34 GMT -5
I'm not trying to get offensive here so I'll end this single conversation with if its against God, it's wrong. One last thing, are you a Christian Sara?
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Post by Magolion on Apr 30, 2004 18:37:15 GMT -5
Well out of all the times I have sided against Eruonen, I'm going to stand behind him 110% on this one. People can present all kinds of fancy arguments and statistics but the fact is still the same, it's murder. It's pure and outright murder. People can pass laws against it or for it, but quite frankly, I don't care either way. My ultimate law is the Bible, and the Bible says it's wrong. That's what we will all be held accountable for in the end, not for what is written in the U.S. constitution, or Bill of Rights, but in the B-I-B-L-E!
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Post by Stella on Apr 30, 2004 19:19:17 GMT -5
First of all Sara, do you know how many cases of unwanted pregnancies are actually rape and incest? It's a pretty small number. We just hear about rape and incest all of the time because they grab news coverage, since they're both illegal crimes, obviously. Most of the time, unwanted pregnancy comes from people who don't practice abstinence, or they forget birth control or something of the like.
By definition, abortions are murder. I guess you might not agree with me on this, but I believe that a fetus can be considered to be a human being, as it holds a heartbeat, and it also has distinctly human features. I mean, in many ways, illegalizing abortion would be similiar to how we murder was initially made illegal. Sure, it may be against the law, obviously, to murder someone, but people still do it despite the potentially deadly consequences.
Abortion is always dangerous; especially to the fetal individual within the body, for they are almost certainly killed.
Worded wonderfully, Sauron. The Bible will always be my higher law; not the Constitution of the United States. In the same way, I will always be a Catholic Christian before I will be American.
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Post by Ice on Apr 30, 2004 19:53:02 GMT -5
Yes, I'm christian. But I'm not Christian enough that I think the Bible is right in all things. Would we really go out and and do some of the things in there? No. Ever heard of Hindus, Buddists, Jews, Muslims, Atheists?? I've been, for a while, inbetween Christian and Atheist, so I see more of other religions viewpoints. If you want to say that the Christian God is right in all things, fine. But don't try to rule the US with that standard, for you're going to make enemies of many religions.
And I dont think people should get abortions for unwanted pregnancies. But you're thinking of a situation that doesnt exist, where people just wont get abortions if they can't. Well, we live in an imperfect world. Women will get abortions, whether they're legal or not. You can't stop them.
And my ultimate law is not the bible. Too many things have been done in the name of the bible to make me feel clean with that as my highest law. Plus I dont agree with several ideas and such in there. I dont believe in converting people unless they come on their own and such. I'm way more american than christian.
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Falyn
Resident of Mirkwood
Woman of Rohan
Posts: 127
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Post by Falyn on Apr 30, 2004 20:21:39 GMT -5
Guys, I'm going with Sara on this one. I don't like abortion either, but she's right. It should be the women's choice. And yes, like it or not, Christianity is not the only religion here. If you want to live by it, or any other moral codes, I have no problem. There are alot of things in this world and country that we don't like and would very much like to change. The thing is, we have to learn to compromise or deal with things as they are. Not everyone thinks the same way, so things won't always be perfect. We just have to learn to see things the way other people do whether we agree with them or not.
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Post by Magolion on Apr 30, 2004 22:08:41 GMT -5
*anounces* Ladies and Gentlemen, we seemed to have achieved a deadlock. I guess we'll have to call in Raven, to see what her view is on the issue. (sidenote: This is actually kind of fun. I suggest that debatable stuff like this should have it's own thread. That way we can debate it, cleanly of course, like civilized people. Plus we don't have to wasted space on Diamond's thread. Sorry Diamond. It's just a suggestion.) ;D
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Post by Stella on Apr 30, 2004 22:10:50 GMT -5
I agree with Sauron. We should actually have like a separate forum for all controversial debate, so that you can choose to be involved or not. Debate is good in moderation, but it tends to hurt other's feelings, and we don't want to involve anyone who doesn't want to get involved. Especially with things like religion and abortion.
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Falyn
Resident of Mirkwood
Woman of Rohan
Posts: 127
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Post by Falyn on Apr 30, 2004 22:24:37 GMT -5
Absolutely.
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Post by Stella on Apr 30, 2004 22:28:25 GMT -5
So Eruonen, does that sound like a go? Having a "Debate Thread" for all of these controversial topics?
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